Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

Author Topic: Some help with colour genetics  (Read 5901 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mark JM2000

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Gender: Male
Some help with colour genetics
« on: July 23, 2008, 02:28:11 »
Hi everyone.

Just looking for a little help here with colour breeding.

What colour plants will Green Walters x self produce? and is it a recessive trait and to which other colours?

Also, Pat Gore Yellow x Hirao ? are these group 1 or 2?

And Murillo x Hirao?

Any help would be great.

regards Mark

CliviaMall

Offline Leisl

  • Titanium Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3860
  • Gender: Female
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2008, 08:59:29 »
Hi Mark

We need to know which group your plants belong to.  Is green Walters a yellow?  "Murillo" is going to be a tough one to place because he has so many plants and we don't know which one this is.  I think that Hirao is group 2.  Plant genetics is a very difficult subject as there is no way of knowing what it's genetics are just from looking at the plant - we can just see how it "behaves".  Without doing a DNA analysis there is no definitive way of predicting a plants behavior.  Sorry, I know you wanted a better answer - you probably want to know how some seed/seedlings are going to turn out. 

Can anyone else add some more about the plants Mark has mentioned?
Leisl Brand
Somerset West, South Africa
072 222 6624
leislbrand@gmail.com

Offline Mark JM2000

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2008, 11:31:38 »
HI Leisl

The murillo is a green throated yellow i believe. Not sure on which group though? i haven not seen a good pic of it.

The Green Walters is a form that is dark green but opens to be orange. Often the flower heads have a mix of green and orange flowers in them. They are for sale here in Australia by a reputable breeder, but i cant find any info on the form.

Sorry,  i dont have any usefull info.

I was hoping someone knew the forms and would be able to tell me what group they were.

Thanks for letting me know Hirao is a group 2. Thats great. just the info i was after.

Regards

Premium Advert
Co Creative Clivias

Offline Chris Ong

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 799
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2008, 11:53:25 »
This is the reply I received when I asked about the Murillo Yellow. "Chris, nobody, not even Victor, seems to know what group the Murillo plants are. Murillo yellow is typically vigorous, semi broad leaf and has a big umbel". Perhaps, Victor himself (who is a member of this forum) can shed more light on this. As I understand, the Hirao series are all group 2 plants; so are Pat Gore and a few other yellows used with Hirao in the CCC seed catalog. It is believed that if the seedlings turn out to be all green bases, the Murillo yellow will be also a group 2 or at least a group 2 "sympathetic" yellow (breeding as a group 2.

As I understand "Green Walters" is one of those orange flowered plants (probably Sahin Twins) that seems to have lost the ability to produce the orange/red pigment in the petals and sepals. This is mainly believe to be a mutation, and mutant traits are believed to be recessive. On very good clones of such "mutated" plants, the flowers are mainly green. These plants are mainly sterile or with very low fertility. However, I believe that "Green Walters" is a clone which has proven to be quite fertile. It will be very interesting to see the results of it's progenies. Certainly something to look forward to.

Kind Regards,
ChrisOng
menuwhy0@yahoo.com.au
NSW, Australia

Offline Gary Fry

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654
  • Gender: Male
  • The Harder you work the luckier you get
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2008, 12:32:09 »
Mark,
I have seen the results from Green Walters both a self cross and others.
One umbel of one plant was selfed I beleive and all of the resultant seeds grown to maturity there is not one plant of the cross which looks alike.
One such cross of which I saw today looks to have all very green flowers but then turns orange.( follows the green walters trait is suppose)
Some of the umbels I have seen have had green and orange flowers on the same umbel, which is pretty cool.
Green Walters by itself can be said to be not that great but it's crosses may show up some beauties.
The grower concerned has donated some seeds to the NACS auction of the Green Walters x Moonlight cross.
I have not seen this cross flower myself but am eagerly awaiting my plant to flower in the coming months.
As mentioned earlier Green Walters seems to be a bit messed up genetically but you never know what you might get.
I suppose the original breeder from Brisbane may be the only one to really answer the question of its breeding.
It is good to see that there is interest in Australian plants again as I believe we sell ourselves short , most people not knowing what we have here.
I hope to post a few of these 'home grown aussie heroes' in the coming months.

Regards,

Gary

Silver Ridge Clivias
Toowoomba
Queensland
Australia

silverridgeclivias@bigpond.com

Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

Offline Lisa Fox

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 611
  • Gender: Female
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2008, 12:44:40 »
Hi Chris,
I just wanted to ask you about your following sentence:

Quote
It is believed that if the seedlings turn out to be all green bases, the Murillo yellow will be also a group 2 or at least a group 2 "sympathetic" yellow (breeding as a group 2.

Are there plants (yellow) that are not group 2 yet can produce offspring that suggest group 2, or did you mean a plant that may be a non-yellow F1 from a group 2 cross that will breed as a group 2 yellow?

Hmmm.. not sure my question acually makes sense. 

Lisa
 :)



Offline Mike

  • Titanium Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1003
  • Gender: Male
  • It's always too soon to panic.
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2008, 07:27:55 »
Chris,

Yes please, do show 'n tell us more about different aussie plants, we do need to see much more of what you guys are doing. Green Walters sounds very interesting, would love to see pic's of this.

Mike

Offline Chris Ong

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 799
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2008, 09:17:30 »
Hi Lisa & Mark,

Firstly, let me answer Lisa's question. There are yellow flowering clivias around the world that seems to be both neutral group 1 or 2. I think one of them is a South African plant known as "Golden Fleece". It has a Group 1 background but also behave as a group 2 when crossed with one. We are starting to also get 2nd or 3rd. generation yellow interspecifics that give green as well as pigmented bases seedlings but bloom with yellow flowers. Most yellow flowering plants in China also tend to have pigmented bases and so are their seedlings (results unknown). To me, I think that as Clivia gets more complex (with the mixes of the groups and advanced interspecifics that looks exactly like miniatas) we are going to see many more surprises in the years ahead.

Mike, the problem with Australian plants is that they are seldom high-lighted in the universal forum. I certainly hope that Gary will be able to do something about that. I do believe that Australia now hold one of the most diversified Clivia gene pool around, from very old materials to the most modern. However, we are definitely behind South Africa who seems to be turning up new found "habitat" materials every so often. Which we have these gene pools (and I mean pools - habitats).

Right now there are some very interesting materials like "Green Walters" (which I believe belong to Jean Marten of Toowoomba who have some other very  interesting plants in her collection) and the "Humbolt" yellow lines which the Mouyet brothers are working on. I am sure that Gary will be able to elaborate on that. I, for one, believe that selected Cowlishaw clones should be utilize in "Australian" breeding programes as they do have some very good traits, not least of all thier umbel structures, vivid colours and also good disease resistance. Can't wait to see progenies from plants such as the the Morris "Tango", The Peach "Vannery Imman" and others.

Before I close, here a link to a "very good" orange mutated "green type" that I was talking about: http://www.victoriagarden.com.au/ImageFS.html

That's "Green Gem" from the Mouyet Clivia garden. Have a look at their website and decide for yourself. I understand that most of the materials they are presently working on are self produced.

Kind Regards,
ChrisOng
menuwhy0@yahoo.com.au
NSW, Australia

Offline Mark JM2000

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2008, 10:51:56 »
Thanks every one for the info.

Chris, i have been out to the Mouyat brothers and seen their stock. They have some amazing clivia. Worth a visit if you ever get the chance. Their plants will be flowering end august/ september aparently, so i will be back out to see waht they have.
Only problem  :) they wont sell anything thats really nice  :( its like holding candy in front of a kid and saying he cant have any!

But they are certainly doing a good job.


Offline Chris Ong

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 799
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2008, 11:04:41 »
Mark,
The Mouyets are personal friends. I usually go there during the peak bloom (when informed). I think they'll be organising a barbecue for hobbyists and friends this spring. Look out for it. They are actually breeders for garden clivias and build up their stock that way. Right now, they are collecting and trying to build up their breeding stock and are hard press to supply "discerning" hobbyists their needs.

However, they do have some good educated guess clivias and will sell when in buds. It'll be striking a seedling when it's big but minus the wait. Next time you're there says that you are a friend of mine and would like to have some good potential seedlings if you can.

Kind Regards,
ChrisOng
menuwhy0@yahoo.com.au
NSW, Australia

Offline Mark JM2000

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2008, 11:14:18 »
HI Chris,

Will do. And will probably see you at the BBQ. They mentioned a date last week. So give them a call. Look forward to bumping into you out there.

Regards
Mark

Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

Offline Gary Fry

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654
  • Gender: Male
  • The Harder you work the luckier you get
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2008, 11:37:29 »
Guys,
I will try and do my best to hold up my end.
I am certainly looking forward to seeing 'Tango' it will be a couple of years for mine to flower, but with a bit of luck Vannery Iman will flower shortly.
Chris I agree with the Cowlishaw comment, and as you are aware Ken Smith has a few of them.
I believe Jeanne's Pohlmans Choice is from this strain and is a must to see.
Anyway good times ahead.

Cheers

Gary
Silver Ridge Clivias
Toowoomba
Queensland
Australia

silverridgeclivias@bigpond.com

Offline Mark JM2000

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2008, 13:29:17 »
Gary (cliviafry) do you have a pure tango plant??

I have a number of tango x carnival seedlings, but would kill for a pure tango (have no idea what these will look like when thay flower in a couple years).

Who did you get your Tango from?

regards Mark

Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

Offline Dean Rallison

  • Inactive
  • Gold Member
  • *
  • Posts: 272
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 01:23:16 »
Hi Mike, here are a couple of pictures of Green Walters type plants (both grown by Jean Marten and on display at her recent Toowoomba show).  The plant with a single umbel is definitely progeny of GW, and I understand has slightly larger and more inflated buds.  The other plant may be? GW original.  Only a few orange "open" florets.  A very interesting plant.

It seems that similar mutations have occurred elsewhere (one called Ghoenang - can't remember who has this?), and on the Mouyat Brothers website - link posted by Chris Ong, there is another which from the picture appears to produce green buds only.


visitors can't see pics , please register or login



visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Offline Mark JM2000

  • Gold Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 376
  • Gender: Male
Re: Some help with colour genetics
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 07:05:07 »
Hi Dean

Thanks for posting the pictures. I have been wondering what green walters looked like. Odd flower arent they?

Best Regards
Mark

Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

 


Traders
@
CliviaMall
Clivia Addictions
Clivia Addictions

Clivia Guy
Clivia Guy
Clivia Haven
Clivia Haven

Clivia Mart
Clivia Mart

Hilton Clivias
Hilton Clivias
Jade Eye Clivias
Jade Eye Clivias
Maria's Garden
Maria's Garden
     
Maviren's Clivias
Maviren's Clivias
MC Orchids
MC Orchids
Sample Trader
Sample Trader
Unique Clivias
Unique Clivias
Utopia Clivias
Utopia Clivias


Powered By CliviaMall