Premium Advert
Co Creative Clivias

Author Topic: A stigma to lean on  (Read 5808 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Chris Ong

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 799
  • Gender: Male
A stigma to lean on
« on: March 28, 2007, 15:28:33 »
As some of you will know, there has been discussions on whether a seedling of a specific clone should hold the "mother's" name. For an example, a 2 to 3 year seedling of Clivia robusta 'Carolines Pride' was sold for about 3900 Rand recently on eBay Australia. I know for a fact that at least one high bidder thought that the "example image" of 'Carolines Pride' was exactly what he was going to get.

As I said on the title " A stigma to lean on". This certainly was one seedling which not only lean on the stigma but also counted for support from the stamens and the tepals.

What is the opinion of members of this forum? Should the description be more accurately describe? Does a description like a seedliung of "Clivia robusta - semi alba or even alba type ex 'Carolines Pride' be more accurate and honest?

The images of the parents certainly plays a big part in selling the seeds. How "educated" do the members think buyers are in term of expectation of the results?
menuwhy0@yahoo.com.au
NSW, Australia

CliviaMall

Offline Dries

  • Departed Friends
  • Titanium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
  • Gender: Male
  • 1951-2009
    • Driesesgarden
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2007, 07:05:17 »
IMHO any seedling should be clearly described as such. No problem to note the parentage as this is important. I agree, many buyers of seeds are not aware that Clivias do not breed true from seed. Any description raising/exploiting false hopes by the buyer is in a sense unethical.
Dries Olivier
Tel. +27-(0)83-264-6230
http://www.driesesgarden.co.za

Offline Gideon Scheepers

  • Administrator
  • Diamond Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6561
  • Gender: Male
  • Family, Parrots, Clivias, Orchids and Motorcycles
    • My websites
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2007, 09:10:32 »
I believe that the parentage is important and has to be mentioned/be part of the description, but it cannot be named the same as the parent plant, for it to be described as Seedling of 'Carolines Pride' is in a sense correct, but leads to false expectations by the buyer. As Dries said, they do not breed true from seed, but the traits can be past on, and are part of the genetic make up of the new plant. Which is important to know for future breeding.

I remember a discussion a while back, where Charl Coetzee, asked about an ebay auction involving a seedling of Charl's Green, if I recall he was not too happy about the description, my opinion is that if I spend R32000 on a plant, I darn well will market my seedlings as 'seedlings of XXXX', for that same reason that seeds are sold using the parents decription (on a side note I did notice on Clivia Trends that a seedling of a cross with Charl's Green sells for R1000 ea)

Quote
The images of the parents certainly plays a big part in selling the seeds. How "educated" do the members think buyers are in term of expectation of the results?

Not very, you just need to look at the weird crosses on the various seedlist, and how quick they are sold, to see that
Gideon Scheepers
www.cliviaforum.co.za
083 233 5144

Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

Offline Chris Ong

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 799
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2007, 07:11:45 »
I think it was just 1 season back that the Charlsgreen seedlings came out, both on eBay and on the seed listing of Cape Flora.

Can't remember what was the cross on eBay but I certainly can remember what was on Cape Flora seed list as I was one of the "idiots" who bought the seeds. There were actually 2 listing on the Cape Flora listing. One was the "Orange Coromandel x Charlsgreen" and the other "Yellow Coromandel x Charlsgreen". I believe these could be the same seeds that were on eBay.

The question that was asked on the Clivia Enthusiast forum was both on the Pear of the Cape and the Charlsgreen cross but as it was mooted by Carl Coetzee, I think it was more out of concern for the Charlsgreen crosses. One of the questions asked was “How can (Charlsgreen) X (Coromandel) be sold as a Charlsgreen cross?” And the explanation given for the question was “Because the F1 seedling will definitely not resemble the mother plant, even though the cross has 50% of the genes of the mother plant plus: Certain things are maternal, I think, like variegation and green.”

Why did I buy the seedlings? The reason was that they were Charlsgreen crosses and I was curious to see how the seedlings will turn out to be. Most of all I bought them because crosses with both the Orange and Yellow form of Coromandel Clivia was available. I would have preferred seeds of Charlsgreen with a split for yellow (orange flowering) clivia anyway due to a number of reasons and the traits I was looking for. Of course I do not expect to get a Charlsgreen out of the crosses but I do expect to be able to go back for selection on a flower form that I want, hopefully with some of the Charlsgreen characteristic like the green throat, etc.

By the way, I did get a green base seedling with the orange Coromandel and a couple of green based ones with the Yellow Coromandel. No regrets whatsoever as I am certainly looking forward to the fruits of my foolishness.

I would say it's fair game if you release the pollens and more so if you release the plant itself. By the way, it is said that green throat is also maternally inherited. Oh well -----.

Chris
menuwhy0@yahoo.com.au
NSW, Australia

Offline Jim Black

  • Titanium Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1200
  • Gender: Male
    • American Clivia Society
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2007, 15:31:22 »
Having sold seeds to several people in the U.S. and having bought seed early on thinking that the seedlings would turn out like the parents; I adopted the practice of placing a paragraph describing what a 'Named' plant was and the only methods of obtaining such and a paragraph explaining what "seed of" really means.
What was the outcome of doing this? Many people didn't even stop to read the explanation (results found nearly 4 years after the fact). I had a few people say they did not buy the seed as the explanations scared them off (I'd rather that happen than deal with a complaint later). It's a mixed bag of fruit, but I'll continue explaining the difference to them because I don't want them to later feel about me as I do some of those I bought seed from, that left their descriptions, or lack thereof, vague to the point of deception.
Let my mistake be making stupid crosses.




"What is the opinion of members of this forum? Should the description be more accurately describe? Does a description like a seedliung of "Clivia robusta - semi alba or even alba type ex 'Carolines Pride' be more accurate and honest?

The images of the parents certainly plays a big part in selling the seeds. How "educated" do the members think buyers are in term of expectation of the results?"



Jim
Jim Black
Owasso, Oklahoma, USA

Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

Offline Dries

  • Departed Friends
  • Titanium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2032
  • Gender: Male
  • 1951-2009
    • Driesesgarden
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2007, 21:08:18 »
I will reserve my opinion on the average beginner in Clivia but I must confess that in my starting years, I was 'influenced' by impressive descriptions and names per se.
Today I accept that I have made mistakes and appload people risking to loose the sale of plants and seeds by preparing potential buyers on 'reallity'!!!
What novices can learn from this topic is that, if you buy the genetics of a good plant, be aware that no great stud plant/animal or whatever only produce champions!!! Sometimes it may be a good idea to buy a few seeds of a good cross and be prepared to line breed the siblings. You may not get the champion in this first generation but crossing siblings of a good cross may surprise you pleasantly in the next generation!!!
Dries Olivier
Tel. +27-(0)83-264-6230
http://www.driesesgarden.co.za

Offline Chris Ong

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 799
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2007, 00:39:56 »
Many people fail to realise that if "someone struck it good" from a batch of otherwise mediocre cross, the chances are that this "wonderful" clone will probably contain a lot of "faults" in the background. Granted that this plant has obviously also many of the good traits but it will all depend on all these are "packaged". The more complex this "package" is, the greater the chances that you'll not get what you desire in the first generation cross using this plant as a stud.

Experience breeders tend to know what their studs will donate to the progeny but most important of all, they tend to build up a "feel" on what could make a good parent and the direction to take.
menuwhy0@yahoo.com.au
NSW, Australia

Offline Gary Fry

  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654
  • Gender: Male
  • The Harder you work the luckier you get
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2007, 12:58:03 »
I think that if more 'breeders' and that term may be used loosely in some cases , thought the same as Jim and did not want people coming back at them later saying that they were duped, then a lot more care would be taken to ensure the item supplied is what it is. Unfortunately there are those who are always out to make a quick buck , but if we as a global group can identify these 'conartists' then maybe things will improve, it won't happen overnight but it will happen.
Silver Ridge Clivias
Toowoomba
Queensland
Australia

silverridgeclivias@bigpond.com

Offline Etienne

  • Titanium Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2107
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2007, 22:39:57 »
Chris,
Sure people get taken in by the parents.But would i be wrong to say that Charlsgreen x self seed would not easily be found.Am i wrong in thinking geez maybe i can get some of that grnthrt later down the line.At least that good points is maybe in there somewhere.I'm asking not making a statement.
Also the breeder probably does not want his hard work(luck) go out there so quickly before he had some time with linebreeding.Obviously it is in his favour to rather sell out-crosses.

I say just state the parents and everyone takes his chance.I remember this(I think)urban legend of the man who sued the company who sold butter.This company had an advert of butter being spread on a building brick and a bite being taken out of it.This man claimed he lost some teeth by following the example of the advert.
Maybe something like this; Not-flowering yet seedling of Caroline's Pride x JHHFJHG

Offline John Mann

  • Departed Friends
  • Platinum Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2008, 07:38:09 »
For all to remember.
Selfing is still not cloning. There is no guarantee that the resultant seedling will be the same as the parent. There will be differences. But, with selfing then crossing the F1s , then the F2s, one can establish  very stable traits in the F3s.
Best,
John
Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like you do when nobody's watching. Life is short. Make it mean something.

Online L.T Tran

  • Titanium Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1626
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 02:41:20 »
Dries, Chris and all,

My rule is very simple - either it is an offset of the original named plant or it is not.  If I sell an offset of the original plant, then I will use the name with the term 'offset' in it, i.e., Sir John Thouron Offset, Gloria Offset.  If it is a seed grown plant, then it is Sir John Thouron Selfed Cross (Seed Grown Plant).  As long as you explain to the buyers that the a seed grown plant may or may not look like the parents.

L.T. TRAN

Premium Advert
Co Creative Clivias

Offline Martin

  • Marketing & Promotions
  • Titanium Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3758
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2008, 09:41:48 »
When you breed with clivia you should know the basics of genetics so when you buy a seed look at the parents and think what the genes should be like if you have good parents you should receive good traits in the plants.
if you buy a seed you take the chance of the plant not being the same as the parents but with line breeding you can obtain good offspring however how many people out there are still just looking for a yellow they dont care if its a naka a john thouran or other name they want a yellow if you are spending 1000 zar on a seddling you must do your homework on the plant ect or you are very rich and just want to say i have this plants baby.
once bitten by the bug you will study genetics ect.
a person offers a seed you have the choice to buy it or not what is wrong if a breeder sells seeds as yellow and they are not that person is unethical and should be blacklisted by the public ect.
lets just remember that there are thousands out there that want a good plant cant afford it and buy a seed of good parentage just to start out with and if they are young enough will have great plants in the second and third generation
just my humble opinion
Martin
cell 0839375216
home 0126561904
Centurion

Offline Etienne

  • Titanium Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2107
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2008, 14:07:25 »
I agree Martin.

LT,why should you explain that to the buyer.You don't promise the buyer anything but the identity of the two parents.This is of course not the case when your clients wants a yellow plant.At least you can 95% of the time make sure that he gets seeds from a yellow berry.

I think a good way to go(sell) is as follows;
Example: Cameron Peach(CP2) x Floradale Apricot  (trying for pastels)
Now you know how the breeder was thinking.You can buy the seed because you want pastels and trust the breeders judgement and experience.Or as Martin have put it you want to buy in the genes of these two plants.If it turns out orange,well,so be it.No one have promised you anything.
Also note that there are many Cameron Peach variations out there.So you can view the photo of CP2 and decide yourself if this plant is what it is advertised as.

Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

Online L.T Tran

  • Titanium Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1626
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2008, 00:45:18 »
Etienne,

I think the important thing is that the buyers should have a clear understanding of what they are buying.  As many have written before, a lot of people think that just because they are getting a 'selfed' plant that it is going to look like the parents, which we all know, may or may not be the case.

best,

L.T. TRAN

Offline neilneilneilneilneil

  • Silver Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 203
  • Gender: Male
Re: A stigma to lean on
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2016, 19:54:33 »
Hmmm. Another informative thread. Golden for collectors like me who are only in the first few years of the journey actually.
If you not dreaming. You're just sleeping.

Premium Advert - Forum Sponsor

 


Traders
@
CliviaMall
Clivia Addictions
Clivia Addictions

Clivia Guy
Clivia Guy
Clivia Haven
Clivia Haven

Clivia Mart
Clivia Mart

Hilton Clivias
Hilton Clivias
Jade Eye Clivias
Jade Eye Clivias
Maria's Garden
Maria's Garden
     
Maviren's Clivias
Maviren's Clivias
MC Orchids
MC Orchids
Sample Trader
Sample Trader
Unique Clivias
Unique Clivias
Utopia Clivias
Utopia Clivias


Powered By CliviaMall