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Author Topic: Hirao pigmented seedlings  (Read 2577 times)

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Online WillemFourie

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Hirao pigmented seedlings
« on: September 30, 2016, 05:08:55 »
In topic http://www.cliviaforum.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=19797.60 Hirao or Hirao cross pigmented seedlings were discussed.
That was 4 years ago.
Can someone post photos of flowers of these plants... and of the plants... now that they are mature?
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Offline hester correia

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2016, 16:43:22 »
Hello Willem,
I had a seedling Hirao x Charl Green that was pigmented and it has the most beautiful flower.
Hope this help you!
Regards,
Hester Correia

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Offline Mary Wise

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2016, 01:35:00 »
Beautiful Hester thanks for showing it.  :clap:
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Online WillemFourie

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2016, 08:46:00 »
Thank you, Hester. I am very curious to find out how these plants turned out.
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Online Chris Smit (Berge)

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2016, 07:08:44 »
Willem, I agree with you, it will be interesting to get those results.
These results will most likely proof to us the difference between facts and speculation.

Hester, how sure are you that your cross was indeed a Hirao x Charl's Green?
I have worked a lot with the original Charl's Green over the last season or three and my results shows a 100% unpigmented when bred with group 2.
I had the same results with my Hiraos.

It could be that something went wrong with the pollination or that your Hirao splits for group 1. We know the theory expressed on this forum
that a yellow can split for another group. I have a yellow which I have tested over two seasons and will be able to share the results in a few weeks.

Chris

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Online WillemFourie

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2016, 18:46:49 »
I was told yesterday (Sat 2016/10/01) at the Hermanus show that some  Hiraos sometimes give orange.
Last year (2015) I selfed my first Hirao. The seeds were very large. Those that germinated, are pigmented.
Another cross (Hirao pollen)  gave green stemmed seedlings.
It was my first experience in breeding (I only recently joined). This Hirao got my imagination going. Older hands are probably long adjusted to the excitement.
After the long discussion in Sept 2012 (the post  I first mentioned), I could not find and follow-up reports with fotos. Was Hester the only one with results?
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Online Chris Smit (Berge)

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2016, 19:13:23 »
Willem I have been told that some Hiraos do not self at all, that is , it does not take its own pollen.
You then think you have selfed the plant , but because it does not take its own pollen, it gets pollinated by the wind or insects.
This is what happened with the original Natal Yellows. For many years people thought that Natal Yellows produces orange when selfed.
If there there are Hiraos that produce oranges when bred with group 2, then I am also curious to find out.

Chris

Online WillemFourie

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2016, 20:05:32 »
Chris, I had the Hirao in a pot in my shop on its own. At the time no other clivia was flowering. The chances of wind/insects bringing foreign pollen were very close to zero (if not zero).
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Online WillemFourie

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2016, 20:20:39 »
Another interesting fact was that the clivia on which I used the Hirao pollen, has variagated leaves and what I called  "pale orange" flowers. I decided to use it because the plant form and shape of the leaves were better than the Hirao's. At the time i knew nothing of genetic groupings. This cross gave about 80 seeds of which about 80% are unpigmented (I did not sow all).
I am trying to figure out whether to discard or keep the 20% pigmented ones.
The berries on the Hirao self cross had not ripened by July 2016 but I picked them in August and after a few days I sowed the seeds . Of 15 seeds 10 rotted and 5 are growing (I suppose the seeds' sugar content was very high and I should have used more sawdust in the potting medium although other seeds sown in the same medium all grow well; perhaps I should have allowed them to cure for a week or two, or I should have germinated them in a more sterile environment). I will definitely grow the 5 to maturity - perhaps they will turn out as beautiful as Hester's.
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Offline LeRoy

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2016, 20:57:04 »
Hi Hester
I am posting this because it is very similar to your Hirao X Charles green. This is Hirao X a GP1 Yellow G/T. The pollination was not done by me.
I do have many Hirao seedlings grown from seeds that have been purchased and must point out that there are a few that have pigmented bases and they all are from Hotties Hirao crosses.
Regards
LeRoy

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Offline hester correia

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2016, 07:18:03 »
Hi everyone.
I got this plant as a gift and the tag said.......Charls green x Hirao.......if something went wrong with the pollenation I dont know........but this was the result!
I dont think it is a coincidence that this happens.......Hiraos has been used in lots of breeding and are sold as seedlings.....so they can be split plants as well........still called Hiraos...........now you start breeding again.......and the backround shows in the next generation! Only offspring from the original Hiraos and offsets will breed true!

Regards ,
Hester
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Brackenfell.
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Online WillemFourie

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2016, 17:38:07 »
Joerg said in the post of 9 August 2012: "..."Hirao" stands for a hybrid group and that each "Hirao" plant may have a somewhat different genetic background, which may also lead to different crossing results." Toshio Koike bred these from "a number of dark orange miniata hybrids..."  "... crossed ... with a G2 yellow (pollen parent).  He than crossed the F1 siblings, and from this cross he obtained the clear green flowers".
See http://www.cliviaforum.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=19797.45
The name "Hirao" can properly only be applied to those original plants.
Progeny should carry genetic traits of all parents (the dark orange miniata hybrids included). Would it be acceptable to apply the word "Hirao" to refer to any of the progeny that show the original green colour without any trace of yellow (perhaps to denote the type, but not the individual plant)?
Without DNA testing and profiling it will not be possible to scientifically prove that any individual plant came from the original group of Hiraos bred and named by Koike.
As regards my own "Hirao" seedlings, on second thoughts I think foreign pollen might have been used. I will have to repeat the experiment when the plant flowers again (hopefully next year, 2017, with seeds germinating in 2018).

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Offline Rouzell

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2016, 06:04:33 »
Hi Willem
I will post pictures of the Hirao crosses mentioned in the 2012 e-mail you referred to. Do not throw those pigmented seeds away! Those are the ones that will give you exciting new colours. The unpigmented ones are all going to be more or less the same to what you already have.
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Online WillemFourie

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2016, 20:48:30 »
Dankie, Rouzell, dit sal baie interessant wees om dit te sien. Dankie vir jou moeite.
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Offline Rouzell

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Re: Hirao pigmented seedlings
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2016, 13:27:35 »
Here are some photos of Hirao crosses

(213 Giddy Natal Yellow X Oribi Gorge Yellow) x Hirao
Seedlings were pigmented and unpigmented

Pigmented
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Unpigmented - Very dark mint green and white.
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(780 Giddy Yellow) x Hirao.
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(1330 Lotter C1C190 A Yellow x `Cywes Yellow`) x Hirao
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(1319 Nakamura good yellow x Vico Yellow meristem  x Hirao)
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(287 Kirstenbosch Yellow )x Hirao
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(1635 Margot McNeil Yellow) x Hirao
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Hirao x 241 Bill Morris Best Yellow
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(1447 Original Green Girl x Green Walters) x Hirao - Different outcomes
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(655 Unknown Group Yellow) x Hirao
Pigmented and unpigmented seedlings.

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Unpigmented seedlings varies in intensity of green in flower
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(1593 Jackpot Yellow) x Hirao
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(1769 Hammett, New Zealand #8843 Australian Yellow x Giant Japanese Yellow) x Hirao
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(1707[(Watkins Gr1 Yellow x Natal Yellow) x Butter] = Deep Yellow x Koike "A")  x Hirao
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