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Monday Read
« on: May 01, 2016, 21:51:48 »
Hello Everyone,

I have been a stranger for a while! Life has been somewhat hectic and I just have not had time to visit the Clivia Forum as much as I used to.

Hence, I was somewhat surprised when Martin contacted me to enquire if I would provide the Monday's post for 2 May 2016. I had no idea on what I should write. Something on Floradale's clivias? I have not researched this enough. Something on East London's clivia breeders? Again, I do not know enough detail.

So, I have decided to start a discussion, which I hope will help Clivia Forum members. Please remember, I speak from my own experience as a hobby breeder and my terms of reference. I don't believe I am a fundi on clivia breeding. However, your input after my post will, I think, be much appreciated by Forum members.

Some years ago, a school friend told me about a clivia his family had in their possession for over 50 years, which he said was near white. Now, I was at school a long time ago, so this was exciting news! It was a yellow clivia taken originally from the Levundu forest habitat, about 40 km upriver from the seaside resort of Qolora, on the Wild Coast. (former Transkei coast) I immediately classified it as a Group 2 yellow and was thrilled to be gifted an offset, which I called Bob's White.

Imagine my excitement a year later when this plant flowered a very light yellow and then developed a pink blush as it aged! Wow! Upon further questionioning of Bob, he explained that they had been traders in the former Transkei and had been given an offset from a yellow clivia plant taken from the Levundu forest. So, Bob's White became Levundu! In the last 50 years, the Levundu forest has been denuded to the extent that it does not exist anymore. As a consequence, there are now no clivias in the habitat in this area.

Wayne Haselau, an expert on Transkei habitat clivia miniata plants, and on Appleblossoms, has a theory that the Levundu blushed yellow was a forerunner to the Appleblossom plants discovered in the habitat along the river about a kilometre upriver from the Qolora seaside resort. Hence the Appleblossom's being dubbed Q1, Q2, Q3 etc by John Winter and Mick Dower, who were gifted these plants when they visited Qolora. Wayne believes that seed from the Levundu forest might have been taken to the Appleblossom colony by the river, or by birds, and hence they led to the Qolora Appleblossom colony.

The discovery of the Appleblossom's led to great excitement in the clivia breeding community, as did the discovery of the mirabilis species.

However, other than the original Appleblossom's being well known to have to have a sparse umbel and not a great flower form, as well as being very difficult to germinate and grow, not much has been published about their progeny. Their seeds are huge and rot easily when being germinated. The adult plants are also susceptible to rot.

Rudo Lotter has crossed the Appleblossom's with Kirstenbosch Supreme (a lovely orange clivia which has both Group 1 and group 2 yellow genes). The progeny resulted in what have been termed, Rudo's Pinks, which have more flowers in the umbel and better flower shape than the Appleblosson's. They are beautiful.

However, not much more has been publicised about Appleblosson crosses with other clivia to improve the flower shape and number of flowers per umbel. Hence my request for Clivia Forum members to share their experience in this regard.

What happens when Appleblossoms are crossed with similar coloured plants such as Andrew Gibson, Brenthurst, Four Mary's, Lynn's Parfait, Gloria and other blushed yellows such as Oribi Gorge Yellow and Ruby Stewart? What happens when they are crossed with "outside the box" crosses? I admire Rouzell for her outside the box crosses, many of which have led to to magnificent results. What happens when they are crossed with Group 1 and Group 2 yellows?

So Forum members, I hope my post leads to interesting discussion which may well lead to many members learning new things.

Thanks, Martin for requesting me to share some thoughts with the Forum!       
Peter Miles
East London, South Africa
083 463 6229
petermalcommiles@gmail.com

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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2016, 07:26:39 »
Welcome back Peter! You have a few Monday topics to comment on.
Thank you for starting this one on Appleblossoms. I started a search for information on this topic a few weeks ago
and I am afraid that not much came of that. I spoke to Ian Brown and John van der Linde who both were very close to John Winter and Mick Dower.
It seems like most breeding was done between the various Qs and believe it or not after that most people selfed the F1s. I found that some breeding was done
with oranges but then, no or very few breeding where done with those F1s. I hope this invitation of yours will at least get some members to come forward with more information.
Perhaps we can call on people who still have old seed lists in their possession to see if Appleblossom was crossed with any other plants.

Chris


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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2016, 08:05:46 »
My pennies worth Below a Gloria x Apple Blossom she satrs off yellow and then turns a Baby pink Leisl also has a stunning cross of the same
We have crossed AB X GRP2 Yellows and the first should flower soon
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Martin
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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2016, 08:57:22 »
Good morning Peter, Martin and other members
I have limited experience with Appleblossom but just enough to make a small contribution. I bought my AB seed from Mick Dower many years ago.
The Photo shown here is of AB Q6 x Q7 that was a first flower in 2012. It was entered in the first flower Orange category at CCC and came first. John v d Linde has since told me that it seems if it is Q7 that gives orange offspring, but as seen here some can be pretty good. He kindly gave me some pollen of his people's choice winner that was used trying to recover more of the AB colouration but hopefully on a better umbel and flower. Some of them could  flower in two years time.
Regards
Piet Theron



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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2016, 09:31:02 »
Morning Doc Piet
She sure is stunning, thanks for your Contribution
Peter thanks for posting about one of the most iconic plants ever there is really nothing to beat a good AB, it is just a pity that so many were taken from habitat and does not become available to the breeders
One thing I have noticed is that growth is extremely slow
Come on people please share your inputs on a fantastic plant
Carrie is posting next week on differences between species
Kind Regards
Martin
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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2016, 11:50:46 »
Piet, you are correct, Q7 is the only Q that gives orange offspring if crossed with the other Qs.
Yours is a very good result, and having put some of John,s  No.189 pollen on it, you can only give you excellent results. Can I book a sucker of the best one?
In 2014 I had a John Winter cross, JW27 x Appleblossom, that flowered for the first time. It had a very good amble and I am looking forward to see it flower this year.
I wonder if someone knows what JW27 was?
Here is a photo.

Chris

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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2016, 13:33:05 »
Here is a photo of John van der Linde's Appleblossom that won him people's choice at the Cape Clivia Show. This is a brother of Plant 189B, of which two suckers will be on auction at the AGM. Now you can understand why Doc Piet is so excited about his cross.

Chris

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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2016, 16:29:35 »
This is stunning Chris, something very special
Regards
Martin
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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2016, 07:40:20 »
I got this photo via email from Jacques ,he was sold this plant as a Apple Blossom and wants to know if it has AB genes in it
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Apaprently it turns pink with age
any ideas
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Martin
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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2016, 09:53:34 »
Hi all

The Appleblossoms do seem to be difficult to peg down - I think the trouble is that they are generally slow growing so not much information is available on breeding because not much has flowered yet. We have flowered a few Group 1 yellow x AB crosses (incl Vico x AB) and all have been orange so far.

When crossing AB x AB the resulting seedlings are mostly pigmented although we have had the odd unpigmented seedling. One of these (q7 x self) which we bought as a seedling from the Cape Club seedling list a number of years ago finally flowered for us last year. AB in shape with a deep buttery yellow colour - picture below.

Q7 x self
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Some breeders have reported success by crossing Gloria or Mopi Hirt with AB (faster growing but similar in colouring)

Taking the flower colour and pigmentation of the Group 3 "yellows" into account they may also be compatible but we will only know in a few years when those crosses finally flower.

Group 3 seedling
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All the best
Pieter

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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2016, 10:11:10 »
I have a Q3x Q4 that has beautiful colouring but flower count is in the low side unfortunately. All the seedlings from it either as seed parent or pollen parent have been super slow. They are planted in the ground for 2 years now and are 3 years old but they only have 4 to 6 leaves mostly.

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I managed to buy a plant from a friend that is a recovered appleblossom Q2 crossed with Katie D done by late Mick Dower. Not as much blush as Q2 but does grow a lot faster.
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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2016, 12:50:50 »
Hello Everyone,

Many thanks to those who have already replied to my post.

Chris, is quite correct, most people who have been fortunate to have Appleblossoms in their possession, have crossed them with each other and most have bloomed with the Appleblossom traits - low flower count leading to sparse umbels and inferior flower shape. The colour of Appleblossoms has always been superb! Most of the breeders have then selected their best F1's and then crossed them with the original Q1 to Q8, or to other F1's. The results will probably also give inferior umbels with inferior flower shape! John van der Linde's Appleblossom F1 has probably the best shaped flower I have seen on an Appleblossom. It is gorgeous, but it does not have many flowers and neither does it have a full round umbel.

I also love Piet's Q7 cross. Nice flower shape and as a first flowerer, an impressive umbel.

Martin, I also like the Gloria x AB. It is more yellow than a typical AB, and also has an impressive number of flowers. The cup shaped flower, I think, comes from Gloria. Have you crossed it back to AB? I think this cross would improve both flower shape and colour. The pic from Jacques is very similar to my Levundu x Levundu crosses, so I would say it does have AB genes. The flower shape and loose and fancy free umbel are typical AB traits.

I believe people were so taken with the AB flower colours that they did not bother to cross them with other plants, which is a great pity. That, other than for Rudo's crosses with Kirstenbosch Supreme, and others, whose results we do not know.

Unfortunayely, the Appleblossom genes, were rather jealously guarded by those who had them first, so the public only got Appleblossom's after much inter-Appleblossom breeding had taken place. As as consequence, I don't think many have flowered Appleblossoms crossed with something else to improve flower shape and the number of flowers per umbel. The best progeny of these crosses, which should be much more robust than Appleblossoms, could be crossed with each other, or backcrossed to Appleblossoms, so as to achieve the wondrous colours of Appleblossoms with a full round umbel of well formed flowers.

As an example, Appleblossom crossed with Appoline, a Group 1 Yellow, or Appleblossom crossed with Natal Yellow (Group 2), or Appleblossom crossed with a magnificent big flowered Orange Green Throat? After this, crossing the F1's with each other. The future outcrosses with Appleblossoms, I believe, will produce magnificent results in the second generation.

It would be appreciated if members could update us with information regarding their Appleblossom x "something else" crosses. I will, in a year or two's time!   
Peter Miles
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petermalcommiles@gmail.com

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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2016, 17:47:03 »
Fascinating history, which adds so much to understanding  and appreciation of habitat plants. One detail that never seems to be mentioned about the discovery of the Appleblossom colony on the Qolora River, however. What year did this happen? I've seen something in the Clivia Register that may suggest it was 1998, but despite diligent searching I've been unable to confirm it. Anybody know?

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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2016, 18:49:53 »
Thanks all for a wonderful post !

Regards,
              Lionel .

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Re: Monday Read
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2016, 19:49:37 »
I was one of the lucky few who were able to get some of the very first crosses of Appleblossom from Ian Brown. These were marked Woodlands Pink x Q4. I am not sure what Woodlands Blush was. Maybe also an Apple blossom f1?

I have made many crosses with these, but am still waiting for them to flower. I find the crosses faster growing and more resilient than the original Appleblossoms.

kind regards
Carrie
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