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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2016, 07:18:39 »
Mark, I whish I had more knowledge about the subject of genetics. I think you have summarised it very well. How would you know? Is the answer not in test breeding with group 1 and group 2?
Chris

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2016, 07:35:43 »
Thank you Lionel for your input on Natal Yellow. I had hope for more firsthand experience to come forward from breeders.
My own research, which I am still busy with, has brought me to the conclusion that Natal Yellow is indeed sterile to its own pollen.
I think it is now common knowledge amongst clivia enthusiasts that some earlier documentation on clivia is not correct. This is for no other reason than those people who documented these things have either not done the tests themselves or have not done it correctly. In earlier documentation we read that Cynthia Giddy was only propagated her yellows by division. ?She flowered some 500 seedlings from her yellow stock and all turned out orange?.
In my research I spoke to various breeders and I think it is today safe to say that Natal yellow is sterile to its own pollen but extremely receptive to most other pollen. Unless someone with watertight proof come to the fore, that should be seen as the verdict.
My research brought me to some other questions, like what is Natal Yellow? Is it a group name for group 2 yellows, collected in Natal, or is that the same plant as Giddy yellow?
I think this is a topic for another day.
Chris

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2016, 10:42:09 »
Oribi Gorge Yellow x Natal Yellow ..... Pigmented stems as seedling .
Maybe you will agree ...the so called incompatible parents ( not belonging to the same group ) do not necessary
produce " Orange " offspring ... this is a pastel and valuable IMHO .
Had I discarded this seedling because of it being pigmented , instead of waiting for it to flower , would have been unwise .

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             Lionel.

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2016, 11:05:55 »
Hi Lionel re our telephone conversation I went and had a look at Seans seed list and he does not say it is grouu 3 I assume it is , maybe if you speak to Sean please ask him about it
Will you also list the greater Pietermaritzburg area group 3 as there are some I dont know,
I think that there are so much still to learn about groups please all share your knowledge as it will benefit all of us
Regards
Martin
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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2016, 11:28:21 »
Hello Martin ,
                    We will have to see if Oribi Yellow x Grp 3 yellows ( the greater Pietermaritzburg Yellows ) breed true ie Yellow before
we classify them as Grp 3 .
The same will have to be done with the Chinese Blush Yellows , that flower true , with their red berries and pigmented stems .
Here is a list of the proven Group 3 Yellows , the " Greater Pietermaritzburg Yellows " ... courtesy Sean Chubb .

" Potterill Blush Yellow "
" Greendale      Yellow "
" Peacevale      Yellow "
" Celtiskloof      Yellow "

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             Lionel.


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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2016, 12:43:58 »
Thank you Lionel I wish I had this information when I started breeding Clivia newbies has it so easy today,
Martin
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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2016, 18:53:27 »
Mark, I whish I had more knowledge about the subject of genetics. I think you have summarised it very well. How would you know? Is the answer not in test breeding with group 1 and group 2?
Chris
Chris,
Well, you could cross a G1 and a G2 to get F1 oranges, then do sibling crosses to find some F2 yellows, then cross those yellows with known G1 and also known G2. In the resulting F3 generation, you might think that if you got unpigmented seedlings from both the G1 and the G2 crosses, that this would indicate the F2 yellow had both a pair of G1 chromosomes and a pair of G2 chromosomes. But based on what I understand, I'm thinking it's likely you'll just get oranges like in the F1 generation, all pigmented, and you still wouldn't know which F2 seedlings had G1 or G2 genes.

If you could somehow identify a G1/G2 yellow (through genome sequencing?), or better yet a couple of them, then selfing or crossing among them would produce a stable G1/G2 yellow strain. However, every time you outcrossed to something else, you'd get orange again because every normal G1 plant has a working G2 gene, and ever normal G2 plant has a working G1 gene. What you want is only broken genes from both parents. If you let a working gene into the pool, whether G1 or G2, then you're back to square one.

Perhaps the lesson here is that best breeding practice means one should do only things that add information, and avoid things that add confusion. There may be special situations that go against this logic, but most of the time one probably will want to follow it.

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2016, 03:00:51 »
Clarification: What I just said about a G1/G2 hybrid depends on the two mutations being on different chromosomes. If G1 and G2 genes are on the same chromosome, then there's no way to get both genes in the same plant, short of genetic engineering, a rare event where a G1 and a G2 chromosome in the same plant swapped genes, or a recurrence of the G1 mutation in a G2-carrying chromosome or of the G2 mutation in the G1-carrying chromosome. Other than the genetic engineering option, it would take a lot of time and effort to figure out whether any of these other uncommon things had actually happened. And I would think that genetic engineers are more interested in projects other than flower colors, but the Japanese scientists have been known to surprise me....
http://www.suntory.com/sic/research/s_bluerose/story/

 


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