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Offline Martin

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 13:58:16 »
Thanks Mike i agree
Regards
Martin
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Online Mike Rummerfield

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2016, 05:44:56 »
Re:  Monday topic.

A hypothetical question to breeders, and anyone else.  This may show my overriding ignorance about breeding (among other topics) but here goes ----

If you breed a Group 1 yellow (pod) by an orange "A",  and breed a Group 2 yellow (pod) by the same orange "A", you will get all orange offspring from both crosses.  If you then breed the offspring of these two crosses to each other, what will the result be?  --  ie. is there any chance that you might get some next generation that contain both Group 1 and Group 2 genes, and express as yellow seedlings?  Or will the yellow 'mutant' genes still have different loci and never be able to produce yellow offspring with mixed (combined) Group 1 and 2 genes?  Or will it take a magic elixir to create a "universal yellow"?

Any feedback is welcome.

Thanks and regards,
Mike
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Online DewaldC

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2016, 12:21:48 »
Quote
Any feedback is welcome.
There is a great and detailed article in Yearbook 11 about Breeding the "Universal Yellow" 8)
Personally, I don't see the point of creating a universal yellow. ;)

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Offline Lionel Bester

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2016, 12:34:19 »
We neglected pollinating with Natal Yellow until I witnessed Sean`s " Narcotics Series " ,
 "Natal Yellow x Naude Peach " = Sean`s " Pastel Blush " Series ... The best of Pastel Blush Series was " Soft Touch "
Soft Touch x Hotties Hirao + Narcotics of which " Zol " is the best IMHO .


We are busy repotting 2015 seedlings so will contribute by giving some results .
We have only flowered a few Natal Yellow x Hirao ... Result .. Yellow green throat .

Natal Yellow x Zol .... some green stem and some pigmented as expected .
Natal Yellow x Etzels magnificent T K Original .... unpigmented
Naral Yellow x Hilton Best breeding Hirao ......Unpigmented .
Will add as I go along .

Regards,
             Lionel.

Online Chris Smit (Berge)

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2016, 12:42:38 »
Mike the answer on your first question is that they will be all orange. I do not know with certainty what will happen with further crossings. You will start getting a small percentage yellows in your F3. A shorter route would be to cross the Group 1 and 2 Yellow with each other. This way only your F1 will be 100 percent orange.
Chris

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Offline Martin

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2016, 18:21:10 »
Thanks all so far so much to learn so little time,Lionel please share your breeding results should be interesting to see the results of Zol a stunning plant , and worth every cent, Lionel have you selfed Natal Yellow and if so what is the results?
Regards
Martin
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Online Mark_in_Texas

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2016, 19:26:13 »
Regarding the Universal Yellow idea, I believe that would be possible only if both the G1 and G2 yellow genes were in their usual locations on the same chromosome and also both the pollen and pod parent had this special chromosome to contribute. Since the G1 and G2 mutations originated on independent chromosomes at different times, that's not possible unless a G1 and a G2 chromosome trade mutations, which can happen, but its occurring for either of these particular genes seems quite unlikely.

So, crossing G1 with G2 gives you offspring with both genes (on different chromosomes), all orange split for yellow in the F1 generation. Then, F1 sibling crossing gives you an F2 generation with a mix of G1 and G2 yellows and oranges split for yellow. You'd get some yellows out of this line of breeding, but you'd make life more difficult because you wouldn't know which yellow was G1 or G2, nor would you ever know which yellow an orange was split for, unless you'd started from scratch with testing crosses against known G1 and G2 yellows and checking for pigmented seedlings. If my reasoning is sound, it would be much better not to mix yellow groups because you'd just keep going back to square one and also be producing lots of mystery oranges you had to sell off or give away. The best practice will be to stick to breeding within the G1 or the G2 line. Anybody else care to weigh in?

Offline Martin

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 21:21:40 »
Lionel having flowered Natal Yellow x Hirao does the green throat stay till the end or does it also fade like normal Natal yellow do,
Kirstenbosh crossed Natal Yellow or Cynthia best with a group 1 yellow and bred the stunning Kirstenbosh Supreme a plant with a massive umbel and still a want to have plant today,
Another stunning grp 2 yellow is Centani yellow a yellow that suckers freely but wants to be reppotted every 2 to 3 years
I still cant get hold of Sean regarding Chris question relating to Natal Yellow selfed
Regards
Martin
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Online kym stone

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2016, 23:41:05 »
Hi Mark,
sorry, but i am confused by your explanation.
my understanding was that the flowers 'appeared' yellow because of the lack of a gene and thus the inability to or prevention of anthocyanin production or expression, the group 1 and group 2 mutations blocking the pathway at different places. if this was the case would it not be quite possible for a plant to lack both genes?
cheers kym
FNQ

Online DewaldC

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2016, 20:12:38 »
Clivia flower colour is the result of 3 different layers.

Upper layer has red pigment
Central layer has yellow,green, white or even combination of all three.
Lower layer has red pigment

So for a clivia flower to be yellow,the upper and lower layer needs to be non-functioning.


Regards,
Dewald


Offline Lionel Bester

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2016, 06:41:20 »
Good morning Martin .

My experience is that Natal Yellow is Self Sterile .

I know of a grower who has owned hundreds of Natal Yellows over a period of +40 years and she has never had a seed off
any x Self .
Regards,
              Lionel.

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Offline Martin

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2016, 07:06:32 »
Morning Lionel thanks for this info,that will answer Chris answer about it and many more that have Natal yellows
Regards
Martin
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Offline Leisl

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2016, 08:32:46 »
Great topic, lots of helpful info here!
Leisl Brand
Somerset West, South Africa
072 222 6624
leislbrand@gmail.com

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Online Mike Rummerfield

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2016, 21:24:56 »
RE:
Quote
My experience is that Natal Yellow is Self Sterile .

I know of a grower who has owned hundreds of Natal Yellows over a period of +40 years and she has never had a seed off
any x Self .
Regards,
              Lionel.
There is a lot of talk now on the internet about microwaving pollen of self sterile plants and mixing it with live pollen to overcome self sterility in certain plants.  I have to admit, this sounds a little wild to me, but it's coming from reliable sources.  Has anyone applied this technique on clivia?

Regards,
Mike 
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Online Mark_in_Texas

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Re: Just have to knows
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2016, 00:49:13 »
Hi Mark,
sorry, but i am confused by your explanation.
my understanding was that the flowers 'appeared' yellow because of the lack of a gene and thus the inability to or prevention of anthocyanin production or expression, the group 1 and group 2 mutations blocking the pathway at different places. if this was the case would it not be quite possible for a plant to lack both genes?
cheers kym
Kym,
Yes, the lack is of a functioning anthocyanin gene. The gene is there, but it's "broken." Pigment is created in flowers from a sequence of chemical steps in growing cells. In each step, sugars, alcohols, and acids are combined to create anthocyanin. There are one or more genes working in each step. If one of those genes has an error, then the step fails, either completely or partially. Partial failure might allow the later steps to produce something, but not full-fledged orange and then maybe only in some layers of cells (pastel) or only in patches (particolor or picotee). I think it's safe to assume that the G1 mutation involves a particular step, while the G2 involves another step. In other words, their mutations are not for the same step in pigment production.

If the G1 and G2 mutations reside on the same chromosome, then getting them both into one plant is problematic, since you can have only one copy of that chromosome from each parent. The G1 yellow parent contributes one chromosome with the G1 mutation, while the other provides one with the G2 mutation. The G1/G2 cross makes orange because there's a functioning gene in the G1 location from one parent, and a functioning gene in the G2 location from the other parent.

If the G1 and G2 mutations are on different chromosomes, then a couple of generations of breeding could produce a plant that had both a pair of G1 chromosomes and a pair of G2 chromosomes, but how would you tell that this is what you've got? If the flower doesn't bleed like a G2, does that mean it's merely a G1 with no G2 genes? And if it does bleed and thus has the G2 genes, then are there G1 genes present but the G2 bleeding happens anyway? How would you know? And not knowing, what is your breeding strategy?

I encourage others to comment or raise more questions, especially if they know more botany or biochemistry than I do.

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