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Author Topic: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?  (Read 5896 times)

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Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« on: March 27, 2014, 10:42:12 »
We have seed ripening of this cross we did last Sept .
They are siblings and Debbie and I can see that , but look at the difference .
Were we  unaware of the common heritage of these 2 plants we would have sold the first .

A few questions for beginners .
No 1 .... What is the highest price you would be willing to pay for this seed if offered at the following prices .
                A .....  R 120 / pack of 3
                B .....  R 180/  Pack of 3
                C ....   R 300/  pack of 3
Question No 2 ... What would you expect from this cross ?
Question No 3 ... Were you to buy 3 seeds at Price A ,B or C and they flowered ordinary orange would you feel you had been " Ripped Off " and that it would be fair to " Name and Shame " the breeder ?


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             Lionel.

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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2014, 13:31:40 »
Hi Lionel,
happy to help out

i have purchased seed for the last 5 years and still consider myself very much a beginner, but  having flowered plants grown from seed, am definitely more discerning now than when i started.
i am assuming that the cross is 1 x 2?
a couple of questions if i may as i don't yet have the benefit of experience from my own breeding efforts -
are these the only two flowering examples of the original cross, or are there others in existence and what do they look like?
what did you expect the outcome of this original cross to look like and is there any chance that one of these two plants could perhaps be the result of stray pollen or some mix up?
you say that you would have sold #1 were you unaware of it's heritage and so from this i gather that you see some potential in making this cross - what are your  expectations of outcome?

so
1 - i personally would not take a chance on this cross at all,
i have purchased quite an amount of seed in the under $5 bracket not really knowing what to expect and now i would rather spend a little more for something  that i would consider to have greater possibility of a more unique outcome
2 - i would expect to get some thing rather ordinary but would be delighted if i took the chance and something spectacular resulted
3 - would you have me share the photo of this spectacular result and be happy for people to know that you were the breeder? there should be no shame if there was no intention of deception or gain at another's expense, so i imagine that any breeder would also be happy for the results to be shared even if it were an ordinary orange.
isn't a breeder relying on buyers' expectations to make sales? and don't higher expectations command higher prices? surely the easiest way for a seller to avoid any ill feeling brought about by the disappointment resulting from a buyers expectations not being met, is to do what they can to ensure that those expectations more closely mirror real results. more information please. regarding parents, previous crosses, compatibility, inherited traits etc etc and even share their own reasons for making a cross and  their own expectations
or at the other extreme -" here are a couple of nice looking plants i have crossed, take a chance and don't have any expectations about the outcome ." but i don't see that propping up any economy

with all due respect and no offence or slight meant or implied, and not to  diminish the beauty of your  #1 plant,
just sharing my decision making process as a potential buyer
cheers kym

and if you require an answer to your topic question as well- no

PS i had trouble with auto correct so copied and pasted from a different app. there were some italics here for emphasis which have been lost
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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2014, 14:43:21 »
Hi Lionel - thank s for a great topic. I think this is right on the money! As Irish logic would have it: Since I class myself as a complete beginner I feel perfectly qualified to answer these questions!

I basically agree with Kym.

From my perspective Angelina is a very fine pollen donor, so a sibling cross ought to be interesting. Looking at the orange GT sibling certainly gives me pause for thought - I judge there is a high risk that the progeny of this cross will also be more plants with potential rather than great beauty in their own right. 

I doubt if I would be willing to buy these seeds at all, and definitely not at the highest price. If you were confident  the probability of producing at least 1  of either a reflexed pinky-pastel GT  or a a good umbel other pastel from  3 seeds would be around 50 % then I would be tempted (assuming that this outcome was personally desirable) perhaps up to the middle price range.  But I suspect in that case it would  be preferable to purchase 2 lots, which from a UK perspective would be  impractical - since there is currently a very limited  clivia market to absorb  surplus plants. That strategy would also be beyond my budget.

Whatever the outcome, I would support any Forum member who posted pictures of the results of this cross,  along with all available background breeding information. There should be no question, though, of "Naming and Shaming" - unless the seller had posted a photo only of  Angelica and described this  as a "sibling cross" without mentioning the qualities of the motherplant .  We should all be grateful for the insights such posts offer.

I would very much like to learn your own expectations from the cross: do you think, for example, that the most likely outcome is a set of plants with great potential at F2 in say 9 years time? Assuming that is the case, what value would you think 3 seeds of this cross should have? And how many line-bred seedlings should I raise at F2 to gain  (with no expectations of a lookalike) something of the quality of Angelica?

Best Regards

Nick

 


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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2014, 16:46:58 »
Quote
No 1 .... What is the highest price you would be willing to pay for this seed if offered at the following prices .
                A .....  R 120 / pack of 3
                B .....  R 180/  Pack of 3
                C ....   R 300/  pack of 3
i'm not really into pinky and pastel flowers. :)

Quote
Question No 2 ... What would you expect from this cross ?
Orange :-\

Quote
Question No 3 ... Were you to buy 3 seeds at Price A ,B or C and they flowered ordinary orange would you feel you had been " Ripped Off " and that it would be fair to " Name and Shame " the breeder ?
I would post the results, whether they are good or bad. :D
The way i see it ,it's my clivia and i will do with it what i like. :thanks:


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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2014, 21:54:23 »
Quote
No 1 .... What is the highest price you would be willing to pay for this seed if offered at the following prices .
                A .....  R 120 / pack of 3
                B .....  R 180/  Pack of 3
                C ....   R 300/  pack of 3

Lionel you forgot to add D .... None of the above. Looking at the price for three seeds i can only assume you have some expectations from this cross. From a beginners point of view i would buy the seeds at the lowest possible price just because i create a picture in my own mind of what the outcome will be. What i am trying to say is any "newbie" beginner will probably jump at the offer. From a "not so newbie" beginner i start asking myself some questions and start searching the background of these plants and most probably will not bother to buy the seeds. Irrespective of the price they are offered at.

Quote
Question No 2 ... What would you expect from this cross ?
Some pastel green throat.

Quote
Question No 3 ... Were you to buy 3 seeds at Price A ,B or C and they flowered ordinary orange would you feel you had been " Ripped Off " and that it would be fair to " Name and Shame " the breeder ?
I would also post the results but getting to the "name and shame" bit I (and this is my personal opinion and view only) cannot do that. Quite often we see seed for sale with the breeders stating that the cross was made 1) for bigger flowers 2) to try and improve the green throat etc etc but as we all know buying seed is a gamble i cannot "name and shame' if it was my decision to make the purchase. If i buy guaranteed Hirao seed and i get a normal garden orange i will be very tempted to "Name and shame" the seller. I buy seeds on face value what i think the outcome will be. We have all seen posts with very dissapointed members because the outcome was totally different than our expectations.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Kind regards
Eddie

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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2014, 10:27:31 »
Lionel my 2 cents worth
1 Would like to say that the price of a seed depends on Market value there is a seller selling 5 seeds for R750.00 but the genes are scarce and the plants are rare and not available so i would if i can afford it buy them and be glad that i had the opportunity to be able to get them Buyers are spoilt as a few years ago you could not get a Yellow seed for love or money and thanks to some big breeders who spend thousands of Rands on plants we are in the position to get stunning seeds today Thank you To all the Big guys and this forum that makes sharing info so much more available that we are spoilt with Knowledge and dont have to pay school fees
2 i expect a green throat that could be better or worse There is a saying from one of our top breeders that if you take two very good crosses and cross them you would get one Miss World a few princesses and a lot that are under par because that is how genetics work if every cross would produce 100 percent better plants that would be Heaven the fact is that does not happen
There are plants that do breed true strains like splash but some are better than others and some plants breed a higher percentage of good offspring than others Vico being one
3 if i spend a hundred rand on a Berties  Bronze seed and expect that i would get a Berties look alike i would be mistaken yes there could be some that are so good it is a choice if you want one go buy a sucker for Ten Thousand and get the real thing and spend that money
I have been buying seeds from many sellers over he years and have had a lot of normal plants from them must i name and shame all?
Lets get real and think what the damage would be to this forum If you have a problem contact the buyer directly this is not a place to wash dirty laundry
Also if you want to buy seeds DO your homework if you see a cross of Natal Yellow x Appoline and you buy it thinking you will get Yellow sorry that is your fault as the breeder could have done that cross to get a good shape orange yet because of the buyer not learning or reading up he will throw a tantrum do yourself the favour and ask or read up on the forum as there are many post re breeding
Some sellers also say that tyhe cross is unknown this topic of buying seeds have been posted many times i think that if you are Uninformed go and read the post
My thanks to the Seans, Victors and many breeders as without them i would not have what i have gotten if they did not advertise and if we will Name and Shame them we will loose so much changes to get good seeds just thinking of that gives me the chills
If you have a complaint take it up with the seller
That is jmho
Martin
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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2014, 11:48:05 »
Quote
lso if you want to buy seeds DO your homework if you see a cross of Natal Yellow x Appoline and you buy it thinking you will get Yellow sorry that is your fault as the breeder could have done that cross to get a good shape orange yet because of the buyer not learning or reading up he will throw a tantrum do yourself the favour and ask or read up on the forum as there are many post re breeding
There is no reference about Appoline being a group 1 yellow on the forum. :P
http://www.cliviaforum.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=14049.0
In the future i will contact the seed seller before buying seeds from them. 8)

Quote
if we will Name and Shame them we will loose so much changes to get good seeds just thinking of that gives me the chills
The seed sellers are making a lot of money from selling seeds.
It makes me wonder,who is doing whom a favor. :poke:

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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2014, 12:17:50 »
Hi

I have for years now been buying seed from a lot of different sellers and have had a few great plants materialise with a lot of "garden plants" in between.

To answer Lionel's questions first:

1. Yes I would buy that cross but only at R120 / pack of 3, however if Angelica was the pod parent I would pay the R300 / pack of 3.
2. I would expect Orange/Pastel green throats from this cross hopefully with recurved petals like Angelica.
3. I would not expect any plain oranges from this cross so if they appeared then yes I would feel "ripped off".

I believe the onus is on the seller to be very clear in their marketing of seed what the expected outcome of a cross is. If the seller doesn't know then that should be openly stated. As beginners we all fixated on names and bought anything that mentioned "Nakamura", "Vico", "Bertie", etc. Thankfully breeders like Lionel have done so many crosses of different plants over the last 5 years that we are now learning from those successes and the mistakes. It would be great if the "mistakes" were also shown on this Forum so that we can all learn from that without the sellers name being mentioned.

Regards
Grant

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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2014, 12:20:24 »
Dewald maybe you should start speaking to breeders if you know group 2 most bleed Appoline is most probably the best known yellow today do you visit shows?my tel no ls there if you want to know which group a plant is phone me also look at seedlist kzn breeders have got the different groups on there seedlist
Yes the sellers make ,money when you buy a bronze green boy for ten thousand how do you get a return on your money these buyers paid thousands for there plants and it is there right to charge what they want ,if it was not for them you would not get the range available today
But hey no one is forcing you to buy seeds at the price they want that is your choice and yes they do me a favour buy selling me there best seeds for without them spending thousands importing Hiraos etc we would not have them
What do you think it cost to maintain plants?labour fertileser etc the cost to breed and maintain plants are expensive or do you think they do it for charity? I
Maybe you can enlighten us nare you a breeder of clivia or have experience of them?
Martin
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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2014, 12:42:52 »
 " Rip Off " definition  .... to deliberately cheat , swindle .

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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2014, 13:06:51 »
Quote
Yes the sellers make ,money when you buy a bronze green boy for ten thousand how do you get a return on your money these buyers paid thousands for there plants and it is there right to charge what they want ,if it was not for them you would not get the range available today
But hey no one is forcing you to buy seeds at the price they want that is your choice and yes they do me a favour buy selling me there best seeds for without them spending thousands importing Hiraos etc we would not have them
What do you think it cost to maintain plants?labour fertileser etc the cost to breed and maintain plants are expensive or do you think they do it for charity? I
I have no problem with them recouping their investment. 8)

Quote
do you visit shows?
Yes.

Quote
Maybe you can enlighten us nare you a breeder of clivia or have experience of them?
I am a newbie  shhh...... it's a secret  :)


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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2014, 17:35:36 »
Hi Folks

Even since I have been a member we have had lots of posts re this topic. Even one the other week re the results of a Gloria cross.

Would be nice if someone who has say grown an entire umbels worth of a cross to flowering could post photos of every plants blooms from that batch - would be an interesting (but time intensive!!) exercise.

Lionel

To answer your "quiz" briefly:

No 1 .... What is the highest price you would be willing to pay for this seed if offered at the following prices .
                A .....  R 120 / pack of 3
                B .....  R 180/  Pack of 3
                C ....   R 300/  pack of 3
Question No 2 ... What would you expect from this cross ?
Question No 3 ... Were you to buy 3 seeds at Price A ,B or C and they flowered ordinary orange would you feel you had been " Ripped Off " and that it would be fair to " Name and Shame " the breeder ?

No 1.

Not a fair question - we all decide the perceived relative merits of each cross offered and judge prices with respect to similar types - I ordered Angel's Delight x Angelica from your listing - and would do again in preference to the cross shown in this post

No 2.

I would expect as they are siblings an intensification of their characteristics - WITH LUCK all the desired characteristics in one and the undesired characteristics in another  :poke: in reality most will of course have combinations - but after all this is how selective and line breeding is utilised to improve plants!!

No 3.

I would be surprised if all three turned out to be plain orange - I think we all would with that cross!!

ATB

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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2014, 18:11:11 »
Iwould like to stress one point this forum belongs to Gideon and is set according to rules set by him I suggest on your question 3 that before you name and shame get his permission this is not a forum to wash dirty laundry take it offline I suggest that the rules be read on the forum as a transgression will be dealt with by Gideon  The forum also can not protect people from civil suits so I urge restraint I have to stress we as moderators do not protect anyone no matter who we will act against that person that transgresses
This forum is far too valueble for us ,this personal gripes and sarcasim must stop I am sure a lot of old hands will remember the last time when Gideon nearly closed the forum and people was band
Some members have plenty to say re sponsers of the forum and if we want to name and shame as all of us has bought seeds rhat was not up to what we expect 98 percent of sellers would be named
I hope this is the last of the sarcasm and threats of name and shame if you have a problem with me phone Gideon or me
We have had 777 guest online  today alone we have had about ten new members  that joined in the last two months the least ever if I was a guest I would run we should rather try and get more members than all this underhandied stuff
Take this up serously as of now we will moderarate with impunity critique is good shaming will not be allowed and I ask all mods to moderate remove post and locked out this type of threads
Martin
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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2014, 19:33:33 »
Just a friendly reminder in addition to Martin's post.

http://www.cliviaforum.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=17343.0

Kind regards
Eddie
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Re: Would you recommend this cross to a beginner ?
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2014, 19:37:40 »
Lionel, thanks for this topic. I think it forms a good basis to a healthy discussion where we all can learn from, especially we beginners.
My views are the following:-
1.   A sound principle in line breeding is to select the best and cull the rest. This we normally do on visual inspection.
2.   For the reason in 1 above, plant 1 should be culled (my judgment) and plant 2 should be bred with.
3.   We are all tempted to cross related plants with the hope of getting the same quality as the parents or, in this case, perhaps as one of the plants.
My answers to your questions then are:-
1.   I will not buy this seeds. The price then is irrelevant.
2.   I am not sure, but there should at least be green throats.
3.   If I am not happy with the outcome, I will contact the seller privately.
I have bought many Angelica crossings from you and I am looking forward to the outcome. Rest assure, there will be some disappointments. At least
I was happy with the crossings and it was my decision to buy them.

Chris
PS. Please share with us your reason for this crossing.


 


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