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Author Topic: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register  (Read 24687 times)

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Offline Roger Fisher

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Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« on: June 01, 2011, 16:02:30 »
This resource has finally been made available, thanks to the efforts of Marilyn and the co-operation of NACS and the Registrar of the Clivia Society, Ken Smith.
What a leap forward.
Congrats Marilyn!

http://www.cliviaregister.com/clivia-register.php

Please, all breeders, help get this as comprehensive as is humanly possible.

[PS - the URL changed and I've modified the post accordingly.

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Online Lionel Bester

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2011, 16:16:52 »
Please tell us how we can contribute.
Regards,
          Lionel.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2011, 16:30:57 »
Lionel
Help comes in many forms
Firstly check the facts and the spelling of names
Then any additional information - berry parents, pollen parents, breeders, growers,
photos
Then get named breeding plants registered - the AGM of the Clivia Society agreed that the Clivia News would be one of the vehicles for publishing registered cultivars. Clivias are not regarded as registered until in print with the name and photo in a dated publication and a page number.
Unfortunately it could cost money unless you are able to find a advertiser to sponsor the entry [their name will be published].
All of this will help the buyers know what they are dealing with.
Regards
Roger

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Online Lionel Bester

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2011, 17:20:32 »
Roger,
        If I may , is there a reason that we at Hilton Clivias should register any of our plants ?
Our plants were bred by others , even though they have lables and names , I have absolutely no certainty of the accuracy of those lables.
For instance a quick look and I see that Sean Chubb has registered " Andrew Gibson ".
He was not the first to own one .
Does this mean that all Andrew Gibsons should be associated with Sean.
  
What criteria should be used to register a plant ?
A cultivar means a " Cultivated variety ".
Does this mean that I could register all the plants in our collection that I am breeding with , as long as no one has registered the name or plant before ?
There are a finite number of names.
If my daughters name is " FAY " ,and I have named a plant after her (an interspecific ) and someone has
used the same name for a Miniata they own, what happens .Am I expected to change that name ?
The plant has been well know in the KZN clivia club for many years.
I cannot see how I would have the right to object to anyone using the same name for one of their plants.

To be frank , I can`t see any benefit to registering a plant.
It seems to me to be a waste of time and effort.
There would certainly be a benefit to licensing a plant you have bred and built up stock for , for commercial purposes.
But just to register a plants name without you being able to enforce by law some exclusivity to its use
seems meaningless.
Also , it seems a bit ridiculous that I can buy an offset of a plant from some old dear somewhere, as perhaps have  others, to then quickly register the name before anyone else or the breeder does and have those plants associated with me forever.

At present , I think my reaction is  THANKS  , BUT  NO  THANKS .
I will name my plants as I please and anyone using the same name as I do is welcome to.

Please everyone , help me out and show me if I am being short sighted.

Regards,
          Lionel.
P.S. I purposely title all our pics  HILTON and then the name ,so as not to stand on anyones toes.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2011, 17:32:04 »
Lionel
I think we've been down this road on the Forum before
It's a free world - like the curate's egg - in parts.
The register is for those who wish to register the names of their plants
For the rest - be my guest!
Regards
Roger
PS - its quite a leap from 'Please tell us how ...' to 'THANKS, BUT NO THANKS'

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Online Lionel Bester

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2011, 17:49:31 »
Roger ,
        Please excuse me .Maybe I should have added to the" Please tell us how " , " why should we .
The " Thanks but NO Thanks " is to invite criticism to my thinking .
I am sure there are others who feel I am wrong and I would love to hear from them.
As an example , a friend posted a pic on this forum of a plant he had named .
He received a reply by someone that said, "you cannot use that name as it is already taken."
I posted a pic of a first flowering plant we named " DELILAH ",the same thing happened.
I am asking , does someone who has registered a plant have the right to insist that you change the name of a plant you have named but not registered.

I am asking for clarity on the tangible benefits to myself and others of registering plants .

Regards,
          Lionel.






Regards,
           Lionel.

Offline Joan Chan

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2011, 17:50:46 »
Interesting discussions.  A register like this is bound to have some issues on who owns what first, but IMO,  that shouldn't take away the credit where credit is due.  I would hate to see anyone to purchase a plant from a breeder, then go home and rename that as his/own brand. It would be just as bad for anyone purchase a large collection of plants from private collectors, seedlings and some , then go home and change the name for whole stash as their own.  So put me on the side to congras the effort by Mr. Ken Smith, Marilyn and others to get this register going online...that's a ton of hours and work put into this, thank you for the hardwork. JMHO

Joan.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2011, 18:02:15 »
Names and money have to do with all sorts of things like honesty, deceit, misrepresentation let alone just having straightforward factual information that others can depend on and move along with. I've just been reading and hope to publish about Sir John Thouron's Yellow. Whether he bred this plant or acquired it is by now irrelevant as far as the name is concerned. But we have certainty about which clone was used for breeding Longwoods 'Debutante' some thirty-five years later. You will see in the Register that there are two Dorises, one Yellow one Red. I have a theory that Yellows can be bred out of red - but cannot support this theory down the line through breeding with 'Doris'. It would thus be better to have only one Doris.
In support of 'Hilton's whatever', I prefer the use of names appended to that of the breeders'.

merlie

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2011, 18:32:40 »
Most major collectible plants have a Register; orchids, roses, daylilies, daffodils, irises, etc., etc. The main purpose is preserving the history of the genus Clivia. When Sean Chubb listed Andrew Gibson he was making sure future generations would know about that plant. Please notice that he is listed as the "raiser" not the "breeder". A register is a legacy for future generations.

There is no need for anyone to register a plant. If one just wants to make some quick bucks off of Clivias it would be absurd to bother with registering anything. Yes it is a travesty when a name is taken and we can't have it our way, no problem don't register the plant. On the flip side, it would be nice if significant plants that people seek out to breed with are registered. It helps us to understand where modern clivias come from. I especially enjoy reading about which habitats in South Africa habitat plants like Andrew Gibson come from. Maybe someday that bit of information will be in the register!

Ken Smith will be adding many more photos. There are quite a few listings from the late 1800's. Many great greenhouses were wiped out in England in World War 2 killing many Clivia cultivars. Due to old botanical illustrations we have documentation of early named Clivias. This online Clivia Register is the modern equivalent of botanical illustrations with the added bonus of being ultra compact and containing a lot more information. This is why this project is worthwhile.

Marilyn Paskert



Offline Craig (Kentia_Grove)

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2011, 19:13:03 »
Hi Lionel

I may not be the most qualified in terms of clivia's to answer this, but as a horticulturist of 19 years I have a few points which may or may not be correct, just my view.I think that the credit and naming of a new plant should go to the breeder, HOWEVER that is unless he hasn't released seeds of that same cross to other growers.  Unfortunately the problem lies with Clivias is that if some seed  of a single cross is sold on to other breeders, where if something new comes out of it, then the buyer of the seed of that special new flower would now have the right to name it as the breeder gave up his exclusivity right on that seed when he sold it.

If I can for a second compare how it works with bromeliad breeding and naming - Usually a breeder of a new cross would grow out all the seedlings of that cross himself (not always practical with many of us who don't have the time or space to do so). They would then pick out only maybe 1 or 2 plants out of maybe 1000 which show potential for naming and the rest of the plants are or should be culled. In this way the breeder can name those one or 2 special plants knowing that he is the only one to have those quality flowers of that cross and he also makes sure that the ones that weren't the best don't make it onto the market.

If a grower line breeds a particular plant he will only keep the best of the best back after each generation, improving the flower all the time. He can then have the right to name the most special ones in that line. In Clivia's, the more sub standard flowers will then be sold off to the mass market and not culled as is in say bromeliad breeding or breeding or with some other plant types breeding. In my opinion culling could be a good thing in improving the overall market quality of clivia's for sale.

I believe it is good that breeders are generous in making their special crossed seed available for sale to all of us enthusiasts. At the end of the day not all breeders are worried about naming, but may be just more focused on breeding a special flower and don't mind selling their seed before they get a chance to see what comes out of it giving us all a fair shot at getting something special.

My conclusion is that if a breeder is very serious and concerned about naming their plants, then they should grow on all the seed of a cross, get to see all the flowers, choose the top 2 or 3 for naming and further breeding with and either sell off the rest to the mass market (to recoop their investment and time in the breedling programme) or cull off the rest so they then only sell off seed or seedlings in future from only their named high quality plants, thereby making them more specialised breeder, creating their own niche market i.e quality over volume.

The other option is to be a breeder who doesn't mind selling off their first seed of a very good cross and sharing it with fellow enthusiasts. This breeder won't be as worried about naming and knows that by selling some of his special seed, he may very well be selling off that show winning plant to someone else, who as the purchaser of the seed will be the one who has the rights now to name it, even though they weren't the breeder.

This is just my 2 cents worth, not taking sides on what is right or wrong.  :smile:

Craig.

Offline Bob Knox

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2011, 19:26:50 »
My 2 cents worth...I think this is an idea long overdue! Eventually the genealogy of a clivia will be available for anyone to check on. As groups(1,2,or?) are established for different plants, future breeders will be able to look-up and find what is compatible for their hoped for results.
I think registered plants will have a premium price tag compared to those who don't. This especially will be true for un-bloomed seedlings from registered parents.
Learn from the past,
live in the present,
but lean to the future!

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Offline Craig (Kentia_Grove)

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2011, 19:36:03 »
Forgot to add something to my last post.  :)

To answer your question Lionel about your plant named 'Fay'.

Clivia's would need to to be divided according to species -

Miniata, Nobilis, Gardenii, Caulescens, Robusta, Mirabilis

and then into intergeneric hybrids between any of the combination of crosses that could be made between the types above e.g

Named plants under-

Miniata x Gardenii
Miniata x nobilis
Miniata x Mirabilis
Garnenii x caulescens
Nobilis x Robusta
 
and so on ...... There are too many combinations of above crosses to list here, but to give you an idea, once you have laid out the types of crosses that can be done, then under each of those intergeneric crosses you can have names such as 'Fay', "Angelica etc. The name of your newly named plant must fall under what kind of cross it was. So to finally answer your question, you could have many plants named the same e.g 'Fay' but only one under each category e.g

A gadenii x nobilis could be called 'Fay', but then so could a Miniata x Mirabilis, caulescens x robusta, gardenii x miniata  etc all be named 'Fay' as long as we know that the parent plants used to make those crosses are different to one that is already named. Then each breeder will be listed, so then we would be able to differentiate between one breeders 'Fay' and for e.g a Hilton 'Fay'. This would be the best way of organising things so that there is no confusion between 2 plants with the same name, as we will know the difference by species that were used to produce each one.

The biggest challenge I see to an efficient naming ystem is to get the categories right first, then everything should start to fall into place.

Regards,
Craig.

merlie

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 19:54:21 »
Craig,
Have you looked at the register yet?
I think your advice on how the naming is done will confuse the matter as it does not apply.

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Offline Craig (Kentia_Grove)

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 20:15:08 »
Hi Marilyn

Sorry, hadn't seen the register yet. I see it is categorised differently.

Was just thinking in my mind how it could be arranged by species and intergeneric crosses in different sections. I was mostly thinking of it along the lines of Lionels question about if 2 plants have the same name then what would happen. If there were different categories for different interspecic crosses it would make it possible to have the same name of a cross by two different breeders without the confusion as each would be listed under different headings, according to what parents were used in the cross.

Sorry if  I went off in a different direction before viewing the site.

Craig.

Online Lionel Bester

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Re: Clivia Cultivar Names Checklist and Register
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 20:56:37 »
Dear Marilyn,
                First ,let me say I have apologised to Roger. When the post first appeared, I thought " I must register our plants ".. then the other thoughts I wrote about came.

Thank you for making it clear that the main purpose of the register is to preserve the history of clivias and to leave it as a legacy for future generations.
This makes it absolutely worthwhile.
I must take a good look at what plants of ours could be considered for this purpose.
Thank you for your Yeoman service.

Most growers I have spoken with think the register is there to serve commercial purposes.
They confuse the register with a plant licence.
All the register does is ensure that the first person to successfully register the name of their plant has exclusive rights to that name on the Clivia Society register.
It does not give them exclusive rights to the name outside of the jurisdiction of the register.

I could own ,name and breed with a popular plant for years and never register it, just because someone
registers their plant with the same name does not give them the right to insist that I do not use that name.

On another note , us " QUICK BUCK " growers also contribute , if even in a small way ,to the popularity,
preservation and legacy of the genus Clivia.

Best regards,
                 Lionel.



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